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----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Stultz To: DISTRICT5NEWS@egroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:51 AM Subject: [DISTRICT5NEWS] SABLES Thank you Anita Gilley for posting those beautiful Sable pictures. ( Editor's Note: I only posted the location of the website, Patty Calhoun is the designer of the Sable Gallery) We went through all of them and thought they were so nice. I certainly wouldn't mind owning such beautiful animals in my herd. I think I support a herd book for Sables, but as an Alpine breeder, I couldn't help wondering what distinguishes these lovely Saanen bloodline does from Alpines. With such varied color patterns, what is their distinguishing characteristic? In all the other breeds, you know what you are looking at. Nubians have the pendulous ears, Saanens are white, Toggs - shades of brown with white markings, LaManchas - very small ears, Alpines - erect ears with any shade of color but solid white, and Obies - bay with black markings or solid black. Maybe my question is irrelevant, but I'm just wondering, other than the paperwork behind them, what will visually set these does a part from the already established breeds? Will there be confusion in the future, at shows, in the barn, etc. as to how these animals are registered/recorded...NOA? It almost seems the herd books could be further muddied. But perhaps, that is what is going on now, already, with the experimental category. Best wishes to all Sable breeders... Jennifer Stultz Gravel-Ends Ranch Hillsboro, Ks. gravelends@marionco.net ( To see the Sable Album click here ) -------Reply---------- Difference will be in breed character in body build, head features, size-not color when compared to Alpines. Saanens should have more size, be a heavier animal, muzzles should be wider and deeper and less dish, ears may be slightly longer and more rounded than an Alpines. Most people distinguish breeds by color and ear length and that is all. Taking a great Nubian head and putting it on a great Alpine body does not make the animal a great Nubian for the same reasons. Nubians have a different body characteristics that are part of the breed. Sables will have the breed traits of a Saanen-except with color added.-gayle
Paul Hamby to District 5 List Dear ADGA Directors, I want to share a little more breed history with you as you prepare to debate and vote on the Sable issue and other potential changes in breeds. I hope the following information is helpful to you. <the writing in the brackets are my comments> Paul Hamby ADGA member Alpine Breeder Maysville Missouri
The first excerpt is from the article "History of the Saanen" written in 1948 by Allan Rogers. Mr. Allan Rogers wrote: "According to Monsieur Crepin, the eminent French Authority, however, the Alpine was the basic breed while the Toggenburgs and Saanens were but color selections from it. It is easy to picture the farmers in the Simenthal and Saanen Valleys districts in Switzerland which preferred a solid white goat saving only their white animals and just as easy to picture them purchasing an occasional white doe of merit from a colored herd in the next valley. Through this process color lines were continually added to the breed foundations. it is small wonder then, that many of our imported does and bucks brought with them this strong genetic factor of color. Many people have the mistaken idea that the occasional colored kid which is produced by any and all families of the breed are a sign of 'impure' breeding. A white color is not a requisite for registration and it seems a shame that off colored kids of excellent breeding have been destroyed at birth." "...about the same time Dr Delangle, a man who did much for the goat industry through his writings, brought over a Saanen buck, along with his famous French Alpines. This was Fosh D.L. 15619." <Could this have actually been a White Alpine from France, that was mistakenly registered as a Saanen? -Paul> The Darst importation of 1921 included thirty one animals and mad a profound impression on Midwestern stock. These were big goats, vigorous, short haired and remarkably free from color. <This comment indicates that color was common among early imported Saanens -Paul> A final arrival who was to add much glory to the breed was PANAMA LOUISE 15363. She was imported in 1921...the heaviest producer ever imported. Her milk record of 20.1 lbs stood for many years (broken by one of her granddaughters). One of PANAMA LOUISE sons , LOUIS FRANZ 22121...sired many high producing does, some of which showed color however. ... Other great early Saanen sires throwing color in offspring included Alta Switzerland, Three Oaks Blossom's Lad, Andreas Hofer, Victor, Saanee and even old Excelsior himself." <Clearly, color in Saanen genetics has been present throughout the 100 years of Purebred breeding of Saanen genetics in America -Paul> - above quoted from a reprint in the May 1974 Dairy Goat Journal. In 1974 Doris Stark wrote an article "Color In Saanens" "Color in Saanens is perhaps the most talked about subject today.....ask and we will find that color is a matter for concern." Ms. Stark writes at length comparing color to other traits that were bred out over many years including course rugged bones, polled (regrettably), and poor pasterns. She writes "We must remember that white color alone does not make a Saanen." and "If some of our Saanens were not white in color, would we be able to tell some of them from Alpines?" She is asking the Saanen breeders to work to make the Saanen breed pure white and attempt to eliminate colored animals. What have the Saanen breeders done to accomplish this? Culling or destroying colored offspring for nearly 100 years has not accomplished their goal. In the recent debates it was pointed out that if you kill a colored Saanen kid, then you should also kill the white parents as they too are color carriers. I personally think that is quite extreme and I don't advocate killing any animal based on color. But if the Saanen breeders are serious about eliminating color, then I think they should be willing to identify color carriers with a 'C' on the registration. Identification is the only way that I see to breed out the color from the Saanen gene pool. I believe that our country stands for freedom. The Sable breeders want their own herd book and the Pure White Saanen breeders don't want Sables in the Saanen herdbook. Therefore we should grant Sables their own herdbook. The suggestion has been made to put Sables in the Alpine herdbook. Today's Sables are not Alpines. Though I believe they came from the same European Mountain Goats, they have been selectively bred for 100's of years. The determination to make their own herdbook already has precedence. Color definition (not white) has precedence in Toggs and Oberhasli. A unique genetic pool has precedence in Purebred Toggs and Purebred Oberhasli. Sables have a different personality and different head shape than Alpines. I believe that they should be granted their own herd book, perhaps on a probationary status and let them prove the worthiness of their cause. It is the right thing to do. It is the American thing to do. Paul Hamby  |
