Later in your post you comment that Sables look like Alpines, like your long eared LaMancha analogy. So the "couple" you have had born in 14 years, out of your saanen herd LOOKED LIKE ALPINES? Born from purebred or american saanens, because these 'couple' of kids were born with some color, they all of a sudden lost their saanen breed character and you couldn't tell them apart from an Alpine? The saanen breeders did bring this upon themselves, did they really think the Sable breeders would stagnate forever in Experimental? Without support through pressure in ADGA for a herd book, of course they are going to be a color code in your herd books now (this was talked about even in committee), just to finally shut them up (sable enthusiasts, which are made up of lots of us who don't own sables, oddly or not), for awhile anyway. We know internet email lists like this don't work, since several folks who voted yes for this have had the same access everyone else has had to all these conversations for the last several months. Vicki If you had been listening to the discussions earlier, you would have found out that showing is not the only reason Sable breeders wish to have a herdbook. Currently, they cannot register many of their bucks because of the peculiarities of the Experimental herdbook nor can they upgrade from Grade Experimental status since there is no such thing as an American Experimental. That makes it very difficult to have any sort of a breeding program when the buck kids of your National Champions cannot be registered. Even in shows, for those who wish to show, there are problems. For example, Sable bucks cannot be shown at all. Bucks from all other breeds can be shown, but not Sables. Furthermore, Sable breeders have tried to present a proposal for a new herdbook that would adhere to the New Breeds requirements of ADGA, even though Sables are not a new breed, having been registered in the regular Saanen herdbooks up until nearly the middle of the last century. These proposals have been rejected by of all people, the Saanen breeders, who have played "dog-in-the manger", rejecting Sables from the Saanen herdbook but not wanting to see them in any other herdbook either. Since Sable breeders pay the same ADGA dues as anybody else, they would like to have the same service for their money. So far, they have never received it. As for going off on their own, with their own registry, they have done that already, for the purpose of keeping records, but that can only be carried so far. Registration papers issued by ISBA mean something only to other ISBA members---they are not recognized by other breed clubs, by ADGA, by CGS or by AGS. If the Sable breeders were to withdraw from ADGA, they would lose not only their right to show, but also their right to participate in DHIR, Linear Appraisal, and other programs sponsored or operated by ADGA. There is nothing fair or equitable about the current system. Instead of quibbling and threatening to withdraw your membership, why don't you work to come up with a plan that is fair to Sables and Saanens alike? There is an old saying that it is better to light a single candle than to sit and cry in the dark. Oh, and one more thing----the proposal to put Sables in the Saanen herdbook did NOT come from the ISBA but from a well-known long-time Saanen breeder. Diane at Nanny Berry Farm Hi Diane, I might not have been "listening" but then I wasn't any place where somebody was speaking. I fully support the creation of Sables as a breed. I am behind the Sable breeders 100%. Now, if people who are interested in Sables continue to barrage those of us who are trying to offer you support, we can always just "turn a deaf ear". Please. I am not ADGA, I am not the enemy, and I do not wish to keep Sables from having a respected place in the dairy goat world. I have seen potentially wonderful dairy animals culled for being colored. If a place were available for these animals, they would be a live and be prouctive. It seems a waste to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Best of luck to you. I agree... give them a herdbook! Now as for white being a color.. yes it is, but WHAT color is it hiding (the white animal is in fact a colored animal with an incomplete expression of color [extension modifiers of the hair shaft/color]... potentially ANY color underneath -- much like an animal being covered by a white sheet -- pull it off to see what is really beneath it! Bill -and- Darrell / BEAU-NORTE As I have recieved many private emails concerning what happened at the convention with jamie burks motion to look into putting sables in the saanen herdbook, I would like to answer all of them at once. First, there was not any behind the scenes effort on behalf of the sable breeders to have this motion made. I have talked to Marilyn Grossman myself, or rather sent her an email, before convention, that I was afraid this was going to happen. There is a big push by others outside ISBA to do this. ISBA is NOT the one who is pursuing this avenue. When we realized that our proposal was rejected and the board would also be rejecting it, all the energies of the people involved with development of the ISBA Sable Proposal had put all their engergies into tracking down Sables born from Saanens, etc, and a NEW proposal more to the suggestions developed by the registration committee and others. This did not include sables in the saanen herdbook. I have said before, and I will say again, that ADGA on whole, at least some of the powers that be, do not respect, nor do they care what the breed associations want. They feel that they are not true representative of the saanen breeders in adga. I discussed this with Marilyn also. I disagree with this wholeheartedly. But then I am just one person. I would like to suggest that the NSBA work WITH the ISBA to support thier proposal on sables having a separate herdbook, instead of working against it. This would lend credence to the repeated and repeated statement by ISBA that not only are they not pursuing a herdbook with the saanens, but that they have repeatedly stated that the NSBA is against this also. I am not the chair of ISBA any longer, nor am I anything but a member. So I am really not the one to take your comments to. I would suggest that you send your comments to Gwen Johnson gjgoodey@televar.com or to whom the new chairperson of ISBA is. And please, let's keep it respectful. She is not an enemy of yours. She is also a saanen breeder. She works Hard for ISBA, as have others, like Donna Palmer and Sally Heeren, who are not even saanen breeders or sable breeders. Again, I would like to say that anger directed at Sable breeders is wasted energy. We have not stepped on anyone toes and have made every effort to respect the Saanen breeders and NSBA. We only ask that saanen breeders afford us the same respect. And that your organization works with us for a separate herdbook, and support us. This is the only suggestion that I have that can make a difference in the movement that has been created within adga for a saanen / sable sub herdbook. Other than that, I do not know what to say. I was shocked and surprised by what happened, as was all of ISBA. This had never crossed our mind. We had a new proposal in the hands of the directors that the folks had worked hard on, and was hoping that they would consider that as our repsonse to the rejection of the prior proposal. We also spent a lot of energy to get the alterative proposal presented to the registration committee by a non sable breeder rejected. Thanks for your consideration in this matter, and again, I implore the NSBA and saanen breeders to work WITH ISBA for a solution that will satisfy all involved, instead of having adga make our decisions for us. Respectfully, Anita Gilley

At this point in time and the history of the Colored Saanen I believe the BOD did what is logically the first step in giving the sables a herdbook. If the Colored Saanens are a subherd book this allows for the registration and use of the bucks. The mess up from 1981-1990 where the Colored saanens were not given the appropriate % designation in the Experimental book is almost impossible to correct. This reccomendation is to prevent this from happening in the future. ADGA BOD does not always grant what a breed club has voted on and wished to happen to their breed. AIC was turned down for lavender to be included as a color in their herdbook. We all have to remember that the BOD has looked at the entire scenerio. They are charged with keeping the integrity of the breeds intact. By creating a subherdbook much like the Swiss Alpine, the Colored Saanens are being upgraded to a more workable status and recognition. Give this idea a chance to work. What has been done in the past has not advanced this situation beyond 1981. The Swiss Alpine is now a full fledged breed "Oberhashli". The Colored Saanens will be full fledged Sables also in the furture with a lot more crediability than they are being given at this point in time, by going this route. Please, White Saanen breeders give your counterparts the time needed to establish animal numbers as required so they can stand on their own without all this controversy now surrounding them. If anything I would suggest thatyou ask ADGA for a reasonsable time frame to split the book off permanently. This would make the issue reappear before a future ADGA BOD. Carol According to Alice, she stayed up late the night before to write the proposal and gave it to Jamie Burks for introduction. Gwen, as an ISBA representative, was asked to comment, if I remember correctly, and she expressed approval. No NSBA representative was asked to comment. Jennifer Bice was handed the floor and questioned why Saanen breeders were not allowed input. I'm waiting for the minutes, it was all so surprising, that it was a bit of a blur! At the NSBA meeting later that day, it was apparent that those in attendance were not pleased with the outcome and preferred that the ISBA get their own herdbook. NEWS BIT: Goat Problems ( 1983 article) "A two-ton ice cream truck careened 215 feet [66 m] down a hill into a hickory tree-with a nanny goat at the wheel," reports the New York Daily News. The driver had stopped to take an order and left the door open. So the inquisitive goat hopped inside, accidentally releasing the brake and thus setting the truck in motion. The damage to the truck was $5,000 (U.S.), but the goat was uninjured. From Shari Renya, ADGA History Chair In the very first registry book in the ADGA office (starting with reg. #1) the colors of the animals being registered are described in detail. While the majority are white, cream or dark cream, MANY animals listed as purebred Saanen are described as black, as white with black markings, as white with large black spots, as brown and white, etc. etc. Colored purebred Saanens were clearly accepted as a matter of course in those days. There are also imports, not noted as "purebred Saanens" but as, for example, "Stucker Saanens." Later in time, the animals from specified imports (Stucker Saanens included) were officially designated as "purebred." These imports were the progenitors of Sable Saanens. Eventually, historic records tell us, the breed standard was defined as excluding anything but white . . . but Donna is absolutely correct . . . the whites and sables all started out and were accepted as purebred Saanens. Below is a quote from a message I sent to someone earlier this year in response to a question: In the July 1918 issue of The Goat World is an "Open Letter to Saanen Breeders by a Saanen Breeder." This was written by L.A. Bridinger, Santa Rosa, CA who was a Director of the American Milch goat Record Association (the precursor of ADGA). It refers to a letter from AMGRA Sec'y Darst which evidently criticized Saanen breeders for "attempting to disrupt the American Milch Goat Record Association." Seems the Saanen breeders were forming the Saanen Advanced Register Association which Mr. Darst felt was a threat to AMGRA. Mr. Bridinger interest is in using the advanced registry to give milk production some credibility. He writes: "While some may have an idea to the contrary yet the facts remain that the America Milch Goat Record Association has been registering Milch Goats ever since its formation, on Blood Lines only and without any regard to Color or Characteristic Markings of the various Breeds. It is, therefore, not very difficult for anyone who will take the time to think the matter over to fully realize that to change this at this time would create much dissatisfaction among Goat Breeders generally. Besides it would throw out of the Purebreed Class many animals worthy to be there on account of their good milking qualities, simply because they happened to have a few Dark Hairs, were Tri-colored or lacked a Roman Nose." Later he goes on to say that " We are not trying 'To boost our stock at the expense of other breeds without merit,' as Mr. Darst would lead you to believe, but we are trying to establish for Milking and Show purposes, Standards to which each and every Saanen Milch Goat must conform before it can be registered in the Advanced Register." A letter from Mr. Darst appears in the August 1918 issue which basically insists that the necessary changes be made through AMGRA rather than by setting up a new association. His rationale includes the following: "In relation to the AMGRA registering milch goats on blood lines only, will say that this Association formerly registered GRADE bucks, in order to improve the breeds. Rules were adopted and we quit registering grade bucks. Neither did we throw out the grade bucks already registered. Neither was it proposed to throw out any registered off colored goats, should we adopt a standard type or color for the future." Darst noted that a committee was appointed in 1915 to consider "an advanced class of milch goats to be called 'American.' In this class, color was to be taken into consideration, racial markings, typical, etc. were expressions used." No action was taken and another committee was formed in 1917 and was more successful in designating colors. Darst continues, arguing against the need for a separate organization, "Now is it reasonable, because we did not have rules to prevent registering different colors in the Saanen, or three or fours different shades of color, or markings, in the Toggenburgs in the past that we must continue to do so in the future?" This would appear to be the point at which the definitions for breed standards became a real issue and were soon put into the bylaws as we see them now. I also noticed in a couple of articles written in 1994 re: foundation bucks "Victor 224" and "Panama Prince Fribourg 16622 (as son of the famous Panama Louise), that he carefully notes the number of total progeny as well as the number of white and colored progeny. So, at that time, these figures were being tracked but not hidden from the public.  Ad space here!

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